I can appreciate your views, Ali, but I don’t see much hope for debate or change
either. “the straight forward logical approach gets shut out before it begins”.
You seem more consistent in this limited scope than other literalists, and you
advocate a morality that is Literalism plus “just because the Quaran says you can,
doesn’t mean you should”. This is quite commendable, but what I often see is
something like this:

Literalist: homosexuality is wrong.
Relativist: why?
Literalist: Bible says so.
Relativist: What about burning at the stake? (Leviticus 21:9)
Literalist: We don’t do that anymore.

I don’t see how a Relativist can convince a Literalist of anything. But
that is why many Relativists see Literalism as _the_problem_. People kill
each other over this stuff.

Another thing, do aliens have mono-deist religions? Do they go to heaven or is this just an exclusive human club?

and as far as hitting goes, if one believes in old world chivalry then any sort slapping or beating is to be looked down upon. If not, then I get what you say- a slap borne ofdeep anger, hurt or sheer frustration in the most extreme, I suppose, is (very broadly) acceptable. But it is a thin line to tread, this.

“…for the message to have any resonance with the people who need to change it has to be the right frequency”. Alright, but what is the right frequency? I mean, if a guy believes (in this case) beating his wife is acceptable, and the religion he lives by endorses this belief, what is the correct way of approaching this?
If one tries to reason with his ‘instinct’, then he has religion to fall back on as justifying his actions. If we try to tell him his religion itself is wrong, then that is flogging a dead horse, you feel.
I am not quite saying you are wrong on this, but is this a hopeless situation then?

You have repeatedly spoken of ‘questioning the authenticity of the text’. I don’t think anyone is saying that the Koran says something other than this (conventinal, ageold, whatever) interpretation. What is being said is that this (conventional, ageold, whatever) teaching is not fundamentally in tune with society or sensibilities as we know them today. And by we I mean you and me, the types debating this on a blog. For those probably immersed in their Koran in rural areas around the continent, who still go by what the Koran has to say as a guide to life…what about them?
We cannot explain the virtues of non violence against women (I cannot believe we even have to do that!) by attacking their religious text. neither can we do it by ignoring what their text says. Ground realities-how does this happen? I have no idea. Iam just thinking loud here. what say you?

to be honest, if a guy slapped a girl because he caught her cheating on him or because she slapped him and he reacted by slapping her back, then i’d think it was fair enough. sometimes, both men AND women deserve a slap (this is coming from someone who has NEVER slapped anyone nor ever been slapped…for all my violent talk, i am too much of a pussy to slap a guy cause i KNOW i’ll get slapped back!).

anyway, ‘beating’ is a completely different ball game. and what ticks me off about that particular verse is not the fact that it is perhaps okay to hit a woman (lightly), it’s the fact that it is when she misbehaves - this is SO vague, given the multitude of things that islam has classified as no-no’s for women (and men) like showing skin, drinking, going out without a mehram, lying, blah blah blah, basically, my hubby would be giving me a (light) thappar ten times a day!

so i end up being a non-believer - or rather, i got kicked out of the club!

however, this is where my personal gripe comes in. i feel that if god actually wanted me (forget the whole world and the bigger picture) to understand him, understand islam, understand religion and the path to him, he would have done it in a way that did not make it so bloody difficult for me!

i know its a rather silly comment, but honestly, if i want to explain something truly important like the meaning of life to a gora, i am not going to speak in urdu! nor am i going to be so vague that he can actually walk away with a completely different meaning/idea.

in a VERY childish way, i’m mad that lets say on the off chance that islam IS the true religion, why couldn’t god have just come up with a simpler way of communicating it?

The ’sacred texts are so sacred they cannot be questioned’ argument is a perfect haven for those who cannot justify their own mostly unacceptable actions (like violence toward women) of their own accord. As you said, such a thing is fundamentally a personal choice, but it is unfortunate when people have the option of having a personal choice that is inherently wrong, endorsed by what they consider to be a guide to life/living.(and this is not only about the Koran)

If, when one has not the ‘luxury of of being able to pick up and walk out’, hitting the person you are in a relationship with is an option, there is something seriously wrong somewhere. And not just in the relationship. If hitting the woman is ever an option, hang religion and sacred text- the person is screwed up. This, of course, is my (passionate, but all mine) ‘long term hitched’ opinion.

I have never hit a woman yet. I don’t think I ever will. But I have wanted to, a couple of times. People can be stupid. They can push you to the brink. Once they know you better they can push all the buttons and drive you crazy. But I realized that the relationship was over when they were going out of their way to hurt me. So I just walked away. Sometimes your own dignity, and clean criminal record, is worth more than anything else. One day I might not have the luxury of being able to pick up and walk out. What does one do then? Maybe those in longterm commitments would like to comment.